From The Times
February 20, 2009
On-the-spot points for careless driving
Thousands more motorists will lose their licences under plans to give police the power to issue penalty points for careless driving without evidence being heard in court.
Police will be much less likely to give verbal warnings and will instead issue fixed-penalty notices for minor offences such as failing to signal, passing too close to a cyclist or not displaying lights at night. Drivers will pay an automatic £60 fine and have three penalty points added to their licences.
More than a million motorists have six or more points on their licences. Anyone who receives 12 points within three years is banned for six months. In 2006, 26,400 drivers were banned for “totting up” 12 points.
Road safety groups are concerned that the new power will fuel suspicion among drivers that police are acting unfairly and that fines are being issued to raise revenue.
Unlike existing fixed-penalty offences, such as speeding and using a hand-held mobile phone at the wheel, the evidence for careless driving is much less clear-cut and is often a matter of the officer’s opinion.
At present police must take drivers to court if they want to prosecute them for careless driving. This is a time-consuming process involving large amounts of paperwork and officers rarely bother to prosecute, preferring to pull motorists over and give them a warning.
The Government believes that allowing police to issue fixed penalties for careless driving will make roads safer because motorists will know that they are more likely to be punished.
Drivers will be able to insist that their case is heard in court but most will accept the fixed penalties because the court punishment could be much greater: up to nine points and a maximum fine of £5,000.
A Department for Transport consultation paper says that there is evidence that police are not charging drivers with careless driving because of the heavy burden of paperwork. “This would suggest that there are careless drivers who are currently ‘getting away with it’, an idea that is supported by the steady downward trend in the prosecution of careless driving.”
The number of convictions for careless or dangerous driving has fallen by 77 per cent from 125,000 in 1985 to 29,000 in 2006. Previous experience suggests that police are likely to make extensive use of the new fixed penalty. The number of fines for using a hand-held mobile phone at the wheel trebled after it became a fixed-penalty offence in 2003.
Robert Gifford, the director of the Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety, said: “There is a concern this would lead to bad feelings between police and drivers. A careless driving fixed penalty will be a matter of judgment by the officer and drivers may feel they are being picked on.
“To move careless driving into the fixed-penalty offence regime suggests a significant change in legal process that should be the subject of parliamentary debate. However, on balance we agree in principle with the proposal because it will reduce police paperwork.”
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents also expressed reservations, while accepting the principle of the fixed-penalty notice. It said that several members of its road safety committee were “concerned about the subjectivity in deciding what constitutes careless driving”.
The Association of Chief Police Officers welcomed the move. A spokesman said: “We see it as a way of reducing the time involved in processing cases. We believe strongly in education and, where appropriate, would make use of driver-improvement schemes as an alternative to fines and penalty points.”
Police will be much less likely to give verbal warnings and will instead issue fixed-penalty notices for minor offences such as failing to signal, passing too close to a cyclist or not displaying lights at night. Drivers will pay an automatic £60 fine and have three penalty points added to their licences.
More than a million motorists have six or more points on their licences. Anyone who receives 12 points within three years is banned for six months. In 2006, 26,400 drivers were banned for “totting up” 12 points.
Road safety groups are concerned that the new power will fuel suspicion among drivers that police are acting unfairly and that fines are being issued to raise revenue.
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At present police must take drivers to court if they want to prosecute them for careless driving. This is a time-consuming process involving large amounts of paperwork and officers rarely bother to prosecute, preferring to pull motorists over and give them a warning.
The Government believes that allowing police to issue fixed penalties for careless driving will make roads safer because motorists will know that they are more likely to be punished.
Drivers will be able to insist that their case is heard in court but most will accept the fixed penalties because the court punishment could be much greater: up to nine points and a maximum fine of £5,000.
A Department for Transport consultation paper says that there is evidence that police are not charging drivers with careless driving because of the heavy burden of paperwork. “This would suggest that there are careless drivers who are currently ‘getting away with it’, an idea that is supported by the steady downward trend in the prosecution of careless driving.”
The number of convictions for careless or dangerous driving has fallen by 77 per cent from 125,000 in 1985 to 29,000 in 2006. Previous experience suggests that police are likely to make extensive use of the new fixed penalty. The number of fines for using a hand-held mobile phone at the wheel trebled after it became a fixed-penalty offence in 2003.
Robert Gifford, the director of the Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety, said: “There is a concern this would lead to bad feelings between police and drivers. A careless driving fixed penalty will be a matter of judgment by the officer and drivers may feel they are being picked on.
“To move careless driving into the fixed-penalty offence regime suggests a significant change in legal process that should be the subject of parliamentary debate. However, on balance we agree in principle with the proposal because it will reduce police paperwork.”
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents also expressed reservations, while accepting the principle of the fixed-penalty notice. It said that several members of its road safety committee were “concerned about the subjectivity in deciding what constitutes careless driving”.
The Association of Chief Police Officers welcomed the move. A spokesman said: “We see it as a way of reducing the time involved in processing cases. We believe strongly in education and, where appropriate, would make use of driver-improvement schemes as an alternative to fines and penalty points.”
I think that giving police the power to do this is not a bad thing so long as people have the right to take the case to court without the fear of a higher penalty. The courts would be too full if every speeding ticket went to court but discouraging people with higher penalties is almost blackmail!
Josh, Blackpool,
i got a ticket from police and i was cross. they did pick on me anyway. that is how i feel. using phone while driving. i explained the situation and asked for forgiveness. but the police didn't let me go and made me to keep my son in the car on his own. poor soul.
carol, weston-super-mare, uk
Increased police presence on roads is best deterrent. I always go over speed limit coz there are never any police around. Focus should be on those consistently careless - maybe we should be allowed three warnings from three separate occasions before points and fines are imposed.
alan, london,
Bring it on! Then the NZ Government will copy it. I live here in NZ and am currently awaiting the long drawn-out process to have a woman convicted of careless use...causing injury. Various hearings waste time and money and allow offenders to continue driving.
Rose Bush, Auckland, New Zealand
It's always dangerous to allow the Police to be judge, jury and executioner. All you need is some bad tempered cop who's fallen out with the wife and looking to take it out on someone. To threaten people with higher penalties if they insist on a court hearing proves the point.
David Glen, glasgow, Scotland
The sad thing is only the ordinary citizen will pay any penalty. The Labour Government should stop gun and knife crime, get rid of the larger louts that plague our cities at weekends and stop collecting extra taxes from the motorist.
Phil1, Edinburgh, UK
"There is a concern this would lead to bad feelings between police and drivers"
There are no bad feelings already?
Pete Haggard, Sunderlad , UK
As a driver and a cyclist, I feel fines are a poor idea, but the rules of the road need to be enforced on all users. They cannot be enforced through cameras. A cab driver nearly knocked me over yesterday through stupid driving. Thankfully, he did it in front of a police car and got pulled over.
PB, London, UK
In a court case the police will have to offer evidence of an offence, if it comes down to an officer's word against the driver's then the judge can hardly convict .
Stephen, St. Ives, England
Interesting that 'passing too close to a cyclist ' was one of the three items of careless driving mentioned. What is careless, what is sensible and what is dangerous? As a cyclist I am pleased it is recognised as an issue and am looking forward to the improved protection.
Dave, Bristol,
Police Officers should not be able to criminally convict motorists at the roadside. With this new "plan", we move closer to the Police State that Labour seems hell-bent on creating. Within this plan, Police Officers become judge, jury and executioner. Judge Dredd maybe?
Jon Grafton, Milton Keynes, UK
what experience does a 19 year old Police Officer have to award points ?
Mike, Sole Street, England
Maybe it is time for the Police to start driving better as well. Last week in the snow I saw a Police car with no headlights, turning left and not using his indicators. If we report these actions of police drivers, maybe they will start to regain a little of the respect they have lost recently.
David Kinsley, Derby, UK
Driving is not a right. It is a skilled activity and all new drivers should be trained to very high standards. This would weed out dangerous, incompetent drivers, reduce the number of vehicles on the road, be good for the environment and let the police get on with more important work
charlie taylor, glasgow,
Why is this government always on the motorist back?
The quicker they leave office the better for all of us!
Michael Leigh, Nottingham, UK
Being caught red-handed & punished on the spot is no big deal. It's officers using their judgement & training and contextualising each incident..
Much better than 3 points issued by a camera with no idea whether your transgression was safe or not under the circumstances.
Sadly we'll have both.
Steve Wallace, Hartlepool, UK
Presumably one of the reasons that the Police do not go throught the process of bringing court prosecutions for careless driving is that ultimately they lack the evidence necessary to produce a conviction. On that basis they will also lack the evidence to successfully defend any motorists challenge.
Bob, Reading,
more weak ideas from a forever weakening overnment.
capitalism and greed got us to where we are now- when will these people learn and start realising the real problems in the world?
"A weak currency arises from a weak economy, which in turn is the result of a weak government". Gordon Brown 1992
?
pete, llandudno, uk
If paperwork is the problem then review or change the paperwork, make that secretarial process easier & less time consuming. To permit police to give points to the stage where you can be banned when they can't keep drugs off the street is obscene - which is more dangerous to you or your children?
David, Bournemouth,
Is the just motorists or all road users? Will cyclists get on the spot fines for no lights at night, using the pavement, cycling the wrong way up one way streets, ignoring traffic control signals? Or is it just making revenue collection more efficient by removing the pesky court costs etc?
Jon , Bristol, UK
This is a Government attack on the Courts and our rights under the law. Expediency and efficiency are no substitutes for justice. This proposal, however well intentioned, cheapens the sacrifice of many to allow us our day in a Court of Law.
Keith Punshon, Ripon,
I'd support this, if they also apply it to people who drive in the outside or middle lanes of motorways when not overtaking.
Adrian, Broadstairs, UK
Sounds like a new wheeze to plug the tax shortfall announced yesterday. The sooner we are rid of this wretched government the better, we are getting to the stage where we can't breathe without someone looking over our shoulder to make sure we're not contravening some NuLab petty legislation.
Bev, Bucks, UK
Will the penalties be applied to drivers who sit in the middle or fast lane of the motorway with no traffic ahead or inside of them and also drivers who undertake? Surely this has to be dealt with at some point?
Tom, London,
So another income generating scheme, im confused now do they want us to keep driving or should we all give up and bankrupt the country by xmas. Whats to be done about careless pedestrians and cyclist who dont seem to think the highway code applies to them will the police be subjected t the same law
andy, sheffield, yorks
"The number of convictions for careless or dangerous driving has fallen by 77 per cent from 125,000 in 1985 to 29,000 in 2006. "
Fewer convictions eh? Income stream drying up?
I know! Change the rules! More convictions and more money!
Result!
GUGNE, CARDIFF, UK
The aims are:
1. Extract more money from motorists.
2. Drive more people off the road in a bid to tackle congestion and climate change.
The individuals who created this stupid proposal obviously don't realise that a lot of people need their cars to get to work.
Michael, Dunstable, UK
Just. Drive. Carefully.
It's not rocket science. The vast majority of people do it.
kevin, ware,
Failing to signal????!!!!?!!!?!? When our daughter was learning to drive, she was told not to signal if it was unnecessary, i.e. there was nobody to signal to. This world, and us in particular, is going mad.
Oliver Sellen, Cambridge,
I live in a rural area where many of the roads are very narrow. It is also near a major US airbase so they're also very busy. I often see people cycling to work. You can imagine the queues of very slow-moving traffic that build up. You have to over-take where you can. Police hit the jackpot!
Michael, Bury, UK
Vidoe evidence might make this possible. Sad to say the simple word of a policeman does not. They are as fallible (and unreasonable and vindictive) as the rest of us.
Whatever happened to the idea of 'proof', let alone innocence until guilt is proven?
Jon, Winchester, UK
The motorist has been a cash cow for the Government for decades and its getting worse. However, what happened to the premise of being innocent until proven guilty? We are moveng to Orwellian times one small step by one small step.
robert, Hartlepool, UK
As a retired road traffic Pc, I believe that this government is the cause of the reduced number of prosecutions for careless driving - it is they who have reduced police road traffic departments.
Are we now to be judged by PCSO's and others with limited training and ability?
Paul Beswick, Derbyshire, England
Not only does this raise the question of police integrity it will also cause a massive increase in the number of people who will continue to drive without a licence. And it is a further step in the slippery slope toward a police state.
richard, bangkok,
If they are going to police like this they need to up the points allowed from 12, and reduce the amount of time they stay on your licence. The number of points hasn't changed in years but the way the police operate has. You'd think the Govt would have more on it's plate than this. Priortiies.
tim, cambridge, uk
What a disgrace! This goverment are.. ive been living in china for the past 10 months. the police here are far better when its concerns motorists, they dont drive around in flash bmw's they use electric cars,drive slowly so they can see and deal with problems..there not control freaks like uk police
dave, china, china
we should discourage careless driving, but it is too subjective to allow the police to decide on the spot. if it is hard to take to court, then warnings must suffice unless things are very clear cut.
but there are surely higher priorities for the police than this? shooting, stabbing, burglary?
jem, london, uk
JPs are now very angry at the constant handing over of their powers to the police so always go to court, chances are the Bench will want to believe in your innocence and unlike the police there are lots of mitigating circumstances which they'll take into account before passing judgement.
Jan Binnie-Gordon, Swansea,
Dangerous driving is rife, but these changes will do nothing to reduce it unless the police actually bother to patrol the roads, which they largely seem to have abandoned.
Ben Garside, Loughborough, UK
"Drivers will be able to insist that their case is heard in court but most will accept the fixed penalties because the court punishment could be much greater: up to nine points and a maximum fine of £5,000. "
Why should the punishment be any different if it goes to court?
Eric Murray, Preston, Lancs
Great! Get all those who are too lazy or too stupid to use their indicators off the road ASAP, and the government makes £240 into the bargain.
Mick, Cardiff, Wales
Dangerous drivers are dangerous! This is a step in the right direction, but not correct. I think re-education should be the punishment. Speed kills a a third of road accidents, the rest are incompetance. There needs to be more education in driving in this country.
Suneh, Coventry,
Excellent idea, and high time the police cracked down on tailgaters and people who cut up cyclists. To be fair, though, I think the police should always collect evidence on video, and justify their actions in court if the penalty is contested.
Philip, Wellingborough, UK
so to save a copper the trouble of doing paperwork a citizen may loose his / her job? Yet again this government seeks to bypass the Judiciary and remove further rights from the people. This almost daily erosion of OUR rights is becoming a joke. Without recourse to the law we have nothing.
pete, Wirral,
many people 'lost' their motorcycle entitlement on changing to the new card and had to resit their motorcycle test!As a lorry driver I have a digi tacho card which only lasts 5 years and by 2012 will also need a CPC (certificate of professional competence)card,the costs keep mounting up
nick , belper, derbyshire
Excellent news. 3 points for those not indicating. 3 points for sitting in the middle overtaking lane, 3 points for throwing lighted cigarettes out of windows. 3 points for shaving and applying makeup. At last those careless enough to abuse the priviledge of driving are being dealt with. WELL DONE!
Norman Pitkin, London, UK
This is the thin end of the wedge where it is down to 'personal judgement' and there being little recourse for the driver and a potential revenue stream for the government (who, at the moment, need all the money they can get).
I am afraid that our rights are being eroded slowly but surely.
Jamie, London, UK
Oh well, let's just criminalise as many people as possible. Why don't we make black cars illegal, they're harder to see at night.
Surely the police have better things to do than lurking at junctions ready to fine some hardworking citizen for not indicating properly.
Samantha, London,
" police are not charging drivers... because of the heavy burden of paperwork."
The effective solution of simplifying the paperwork is too obvious for a micro managing government .
The fall in prosecutions is more attributable to the lack of dedicated traffic police than increased paperwork
Bernard, Edinburgh, Scotland
FINALLY the police are going to do something about the cause of 93% of all accidents. But on the spot fines should play no part in this: it should merely be points and bans. The goal should be to get bad drivers off the road for good, not roll in revenue.
Video it and take it to court.
Laura Roberts, London, UK
Slowly, stealthily, inexorably, Big Brother is creeping up on you. Careless driving is a purely subjective offense and I would rarely accept any police officer's definition of it. Time to get out and live somewhere else? You bet. The U.K. is now a police state.
Rokola, Chiang Mai, Thailand
So the "steady downward drift" in prosecutions for careless driving is evidence that drivers are "getting away with it" not that driving standards are getting better, whereas the steady upward drift in A Level grades is evidence that students are getting better, not that exams are getting easier.
William , Chiang Mai, Thailand
"I'll be judge, I'll be jury", cried cunning old Fury,
"I'll try the whole Cause and condemn you to death."
I used to think Lewis Carrol was amusing. Now it looks more like prescience. I dread this. I dread the sheer unaccountability of it, arbitrary, utterly wrong and contrary to Magna Carta.
Richard, Horley, UK
Police, police, police. That's the Brown motto. Scrap juries, scrap judicial process. Police, police, police. The UK is more authoritarian than any communist country I know.
Paul, Saigon,
I think it's a good idea. There is some truly atrocious driving on the road and if people know that their licenses are a privilege that can be removed then they will drive better. If you cannot drive with diligence and courtesy then get off the road. There's too many cars on the road anyway.
Kim, London,
The police should fine and give points for tailgating. I always get tailgated in a 30 zone where I always do 30 mph max. (Hit someone at 30 and they should live. 35 they are dead. This simple of physics means that a few extra mph produces an exponential force that's vastly greater).
Phil Smith, Warrick, UK
Will the new rules also apply to the police? I have often noticed that police vehicles fail to indicate when turning right. They also park on double yellow lines and cause obstructions. Are they immune to the law?
Katie Mallett, Ilfracombe, England
There are too many careless and selfish drivers out there. It is about time the law was applied. Issuing penalty points is far fairer than issuing fines, which suit the better off.
DPS, Bath,
In a free society the only thing I will welcome is the disbandment of the private company - ACPO. What part of democarcy allows a private company such power over police forces ?
Wills, Soton, UK
Driving without due care and consideration is the catch all defenseless charge. 5 mph and crashing in snow is answered with the premise that 4 mph may have avoided the accident. The courts should deal with Careless driving and without care and consideration struck off.
Joe, Geelong, VIC Australia
Yet more evidence of the advance of the police state.
Why bother with the law when the police can act as judge and jury.. After all after 11 years of this useless goverment they
cant do anything about youth crime so lets get tough on the dispicable motorist time to leave!!!
stuart r, ellesmere, salop
Do you trust the police to be even-handed and fair in these matters? Or do you see target-driven cases to keep New Labour fascists happy and money rolling into The Exchequer?
Non-car owning polytechnic tutors living in central London will approve.
The rest of us...?
Ed Moran, Torquay,